Thursday, September 29, 2011

No Problem! Business as Usual! Part 1

This is just a follow up from my previous post, and the follow up I went through after finding a video I didn't think was appropriate. Turns out my concerns and thoughts were way off.

I have received feedback the person in the video is Brad Duncan who is on the IBOAI and is currently the Chairman of the Board of Directors. I have read on other blogs that he only Crown who still shows the plan. However, I determined that to be another Amway Urban Legend.

It struck me as a rather bold statement that one could make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month in Amway. That's a lot of money and a lot of vitamins and energy drinks that you would have to be generating sales for every month in order to "make" over $200,000 every month. Man! That would be a LOT! I mean, like, man......words fail me. Can you imagine how many cans of XS you're pumping through your business to be "making" hundreds of thousands a month? Like, holy! But by golly, this guy is a Crown Direct, and if he says something, you can take it straight to the bank. At least that was the impression I got after numerous inquiries to the Amway corporation.

I did some searching around and located the Amway Business overview (SKU # BOV Content reviewed # 20263). I guess some guy put it online for all to see. For the record, I don't know who the guy hosting this image is, but I did find it useful.

In there, (bottom of the 4th page) it clearly states that the average monthly gross income for “active” IBOs was $115 (US) and $181 (CAN) based on an independent 2001 survey. This independent survey was done in 2001 and “active” means an IBO attempted to make a retail sale OR presented the Independent Business Ownership Plan OR received bonus money OR attended a company or IBO meeting in the year 2000.

So for my Canadian peeps, in this 2001 survey it would appear that if you tried to sell your buddy an energy drink and did nothing else for a whole year, you were considered active, and would have been a part of the "active" IBO used to acquire the average income data and would be presumed to average $181 a month. Before expenses.

So, what's the big deal? What's wrong with telling people that they could make hundreds of thousands of dollars month in this business? If it's true, then what is the problem?

The short answer is nothing. There is no problem. However, dear reader, based on Amway's own data I personally had reservations believing that one can reasonably expect to make a couple hundred grand a month selling Amway products. Call me skeptical, call me a loser or a dream stealer. I could be wrong, but if it was that common don't you think you'd hear more about it? I would think so.

So in order to figure out what the heck was right and what was maybe being misunderstood, I sent an email at the behest of Jason Ménard over at North of the 49th in a post regarding the power of Social Media to The BCR, which is the Business Conduct and Rules Department.

I thought that in a business where a 2001 study determined the average active income for an IBO was $115 (US) and $181 (CAN), someone who is claiming one can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month is a bit, I don't know......out there? Hey! I'm no Harvard grad, but that's a LOT of money! I mean a LOT!

Am I wrong here? to get some answers I go, and I send this email off to the BCR, way back in July of this year. Bear with me here, I am basically copy and pasting these emails to this post. The only edits I have made are to format them so it reads in a comprehensive manner.

FYI Outrageous LEADER claim

Rocket Rocket
07/22/2011 06:17 PM
From: Rocket Rocket <> To: "" <>

Please respond to Rocket Rocket <>

I would appreciate it if any sort of consequence or lack thereof were to
arise from this.....

If this is acceptable, please say so.

If it isn't, please say so.

I will be posting a post regarding these types of messages on my blog.
Your response or lack of response will be noted.


I then included a link with the video you see at the start of this post. I was then treated to the following response:


Thank you for your E-mail. I was unable to open the attachment you sent.
Can you please resend in PDF? Can you also please include your IBO number?

Business Conduct and Rules

I don't know who sent that reply back to me, there is no name of the Amway corporate employee attached to it. I guess I shouldn't be surprised since he or she wasn't really bright enough to know that I wasn't Brad. I can't send a PDF of a video, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm not really that computer savvy, so maybe it can be done! However, I thought to myself, "Self, let's just make this easier for the Amway Corporation to figure out.

So I sent this back to BCR:

I am not an IBO, nor will I ever be again. I located the video on YouTube and saved it before it was deleted. I have seen many videos like this involving the same individual.

I would like to know what Amway is doing about statements such as this which I believe are dishonest. If I am incorrect, please advise if this is acceptable as I plan on doing a blog post regarding statements such as this.

You may view the video here:


So then I get an email back from Karen O'Neil. Now.....Ms. O'Neil has had some pretty harsh things said about her by other bloggers out there. Well, just one blogger really. I will go on record right now and say that I have nothing negative to say about Ms. O'Neil. Here's what she replied back:

When it comes to income claims and representations, we do have rules and standards that apply. As such, we will certainly investigate the origins of this video and address any issues that may conflict with those rules and standards, as per our normal process.

Karen O'Neill
Rules Administration

Re: FYI Outrageous LEADER claim

07/25/2011 04:47 PM

Please respond to Rocket Rocket

Again, i will apologize for the mish mash of the email copy & paste, it just isn't going well. So anyway.....there you have it! They have rules & standards and they are going to look into it. Right on! After all, a civil question deserves a civil answer doesn't it! OK! Now I'm going to get some answers! I'm feeling really good about this and really feel like I'm part of the solution now!
I'm expecting Amway to say, "You know what Rocket, there are lots of IBO's who make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month with their Amway business. You are completely out to lunch and should shut your mouth. Here, look at this document. Here's the number of IBO's who make over $200,000 a month. Your suspicions of this not being true are completely baseless, and quite frankly you should be embarrassed for even QUESTIONING the integrity of the speaker in that video". So I reply to her in this email on July 26th......

To Be Continued.......

Oh, and by the way

I love you all. Truly

Sunday, September 25, 2011

Amway Guys - They Sure Say Stuff!

A while back, I was doing some searching around the ol' internet and came across this video. I found this on Youtube, and the title claims this person to be Brad Duncan. I don't know if it is or not because I have never met Mr. Duncan, so if you can confirm, please do so! I don't know who took this video other than it was maybe someone who didn't qualify as a Platinum it would seem.

I am curious to see what people think of the income claim made here, and the perception in general this particular message portrays. I have a few questions that I would really be curious to hear your answer to:

1. How do you feel after watching this?

2. Where do you think this falls under the rules of conduct guidelines?

3. What do you think Amway would say about this video?

4. What would you think if you were an IBO? Do you listen to this guy (Is this Brad Duncan, the Chair of the IBOAI?) or Amway when it comes to realistic income claims?

5. Should Amway be OK with this?

Oh, make no mistake about it, I love you too, man.

Sunday, September 18, 2011

Paycheck to Paycheck.....Response response

I can't seem to reply again on Shaun's reply to my post.. Thanks Shaun for engaging into the discussion!

RESPONSE: I don't know what the direction of your article was. My impression was that you were lecturing people about how so many people are bad with money, but not you anymore since you started taking advice from Amway people. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Sure it’s quite common but does that mean that it needs to be done and followed? My point is that’s what leads people into the mess of finances and I’ve mentioned before here that we used to do that. We ended up buying the fancy furniture and filling our condo with nice stuff so we could look good to our friends. Your comments on the being “ostracized” and “gently chided” just shows how old your mentality is towards what is going on now. I think out of everything you post this really bothers me because that’s not how things are today. We have members on our team that do go, and some that don’t go. We’ve never once, nor has my upline ever ostracized anyone for not going. We meet people with where they are at and how they want to build the business. It’s not just all or nothing, if you were involved or even wanted to find out the right information you’d notice this has changed. Its about time you grow up and start expanding your mind to the possibility that some things do change. Sorry you got screwed by your upline long ago, but don’t paint myself or my upline with the same brush. As for being proven, that’s your opinion. I’ve seen value in it and what its done for myself.

RESPONSE: Does it need to be followed? Answer that question yourself! Does your upline suggest that if you are serious about this you will be fully engaged in the system (despite a low success rate)? I think basically what I am trying to communicate to you is that just because *you* were stupid with your money it doesn't mean that by default everyone else is or was. If you think your upline would not even blink if you went off system, then I encourage you to do so and prove me wrong because I don't believe that. Not because I am narrow minded or because I lack the ability to accept differences either. It's because I know damn well that uplines (I suspect yours as well) depend on that money they collect when you buy their motivation. I may not have ALL the information, but you don't either. I suspect you aren't aware of the amount of money one can expect from the movement of tools, functions, voice mail if you use it (If you do you're a fool because voice mail is sooooo 80's). Are you aware of a payment schedule for tool movement through your organization? If not why not? It is your business, no? Real businesses don't do things unless they know what they will be getting paid for their efforts. I have no doubt you see value in the tools. They are DESIGNED for you to feel that way. Just like a Big Mac is designed to taste good, even though it isn't necessarily the best thing for your body.

Your right not our upline, this has never been taught or said from stage at any World Wide function since I’ve been involved. I can’t speak to “numerous uplines” because I’m obviously not as all knowing as you are. I’ll never ever teach that or encourage anyone to go into debt.

RESPONSE: So you don't tell your folks how important the functions and motivation is? You didn't encourage anyone to attend all 3 Dream Nights in Alberta in a 4 day span? I'm not all knowing, but I can draw up a conclusion based upon what I know, past experience, and common sense. For example, I have heard claims by your upline that are suspect at best. I don't believe they have your best interests at heart. As far as you never encouraging people to go into debt, GREAT! Can you say you represent your upline/downline? You have no control over that, which means it could happen even if you don't agree with it. Welcome to MLM.

Quite well actually. Thing is I set that date before we even decided to have kids, funny how life can change things eh? Guess life has never given you set backs or you’ve never had failures? Life is full of changes and have I had to reset that date. The lesson is being able to reset the date or anything in life and continue to strive for it. I will achieve it and have examples from my direct sponsor and upline in succession that have done it. Did they also change some of their dates? Yeah, but they still aimed for it and reached it. If you go through life quitting after missing a goal or target you’ll end up being just that a quitter. No that’s not aimed at being an Amway IBO, that’s ANYTHING in life.

RESPONSE: I am not criticizing you meeting your goal, I'm pointing out that you didn't. I have had TONS of setbacks. Quite frankly, one of the biggest setbacks former IBO's talk about is the business you are in right now! Enjoy the irony. I have no problem with goal setting, but I would encourage you to determine what you need to do to move forward. The answer is NOT in those CD's you listen to or the seminars you go to. They are what your upline needs *you* to do so *they* can move forward in my opinion.

I’ve never said Amway needs to be your plan B or your financial woes, guess you miss read that in my post?

RESPONSE: Your tone suggests that this is your plan B. I am stating that I believe it to be the WORST plan B I have ever seen.

Good for you, your trying to impress me how?

RESPONSE: Not trying to impress all. Since I'm not on a WWDB CD or speaking from an Amway stage I sincerely doubt I COULD impress you. What I was attempting to do was demonstrate that I know people who are what you are trying to be, free. None of them act like Amway people. They don't put themselves up on pedestals, and quite frankly, you would never know they were millionaires. According to a book called "The Millionaire Next Door" that is how most millionaires act. In my experience, Amway leaders put themselves up on a pedestal with false humility and feigned concern for everyone's well being.

Your right, I won’t take that bet. However one thing I’ve seen with people I know that make around 1/2 a million to a few that make millions (on paper, not cashflow. BIG difference there) is they don’t live the life I want to live. Now I’m sure you’ll be quick to defend the 12 millionaires you know, but I can tell you the millionaires here the majority of them are working long hours, probably working up north away from their families. Flying in and out. Probably have more debt as the more money you make the more you’re able to leverage. Sure being a millionaire is cool but do you have the lifestyle that I want? 99% probably not. I’d actually love to have less money but have a marriage that’s on track, I’m able to see my kids each and every day, be able to bless people with money and help out great causes (Like Easter Seals, thanks for the comments on that by the way, glad to see your well rounded with your comments on my site), and overall have a much stress free life. Sorry making millions by flying in and out of the North is not my ideal life. Or running a company where I need to manage people and pay salaries, worry about financial stresses, assets, investments, the list goes on and on and on. You can be wealthy on paper, but are you wealthy in life? That’s what matters to me.

RESPONSE: A millionaire is someone who has a NET WORTH of a million bucks. Has nothing to do with cash flow and your objection is an Amway system response. The only "millionaires" I know of with cash flow problems are athletes with poor money skills and Amway folks. Look man, the life you are chasing, in my opinion doesn't exist. Even your hero leaders keep having to spin plates to keep the money flowing. Again, you cannot disprove it any more than I can prove it because their books will never be open to you or I. Stalemate, but I'd bet $1000 I'm right. As far as not commenting on your site the way you think I should, I'm not convinced you will post comments that disagree with WWDB teachings. Hell, you even remove my website link to my name, and welcome! It's your blog, fill your boots! That's the reason though,, and obviously you have a problem with people clicking my name from your blog. Your prerogative, my explanation.

So you don't want to run a company and pay salaries and worry about having to be responsible about stuff, yet you want to be financially independent? Good Luck with that.

Oh, my mistake, I didn’t know you were the overseeing authority on what being debt free was. Just because your leveraged doesn’t mean you need poo on my being debt free. Who said you HAVE to have a house and that determines your debt level? At least I’m not tied to a house and having a hard time trying to sell it before we move to Kelowna in a few years. We will see who’s laughing when people have to re-mortgage as the interest rate goes up and the ones who maxed out what they could afford end up walking away. As for disposable income, maybe for your upline that’s how it happened but my bank account grows each month. I know you find that so terribly hard to believe, but if you could just expand that thick skull of yours you may see that SOME things are a bit different. Your NOT the overseeing authority on all things Amway or WWDB, and neither am I. However the difference between you and I is that you built it years ago and failed, I am building it now and am succeeding in many areas.

RESPONSE: Yes, indeed. We'll see whose laughing when rent prices go through the roof due to higher interest rates as well. I wouldn't define myself as leveraged because I have a mortgage. I have control over my own destiny, I would argue more so that an Amway guy. I would never rent. I like doing what I want to my house, in my house, and i don't need some landlord telling me what I can and can't do. You're all about freedom? What if some oilfield millionaire offers to buy the house you're renting from the owner? You're out on your ass scrambling for a place for your family. My bank account grows every month too man. I spend less than I earn and don't go to a non productive function every 3 months either. More time with my family for me! Screw delayed gratification when it comes to time with my wife & kids! You never know what is going to happen next week, and I choose to spend my time with them now. You have conflicting arguments when you don't want to have to be away from your family to earn a living ( One of the reasons you want to be a big Amway guy), yet you left your wife & newborn at home to go to a function. Tell me the difference.

My kids need me now, not when I try to build some rinky dink low success rate multilevel marketing buisness and then spend all my time making CD's and speaking at functions so the money keeps coming in. Does that make me selfish and not forward thinking? If I had an upline it would!

I’m not a better person because I have an Amway business, however I’ve learned quite a few great things from a lot of the personal growth books and getting around people that have a lifestyle I think is pretty decent. Amway didn’t teach me that or give me those books. Besides what’s wrong with being a better person?

RESPONSE: You forgot to add if that's why you got into it, to become a better person? A business is to make money. Period. If you aren't making money you are not succeeding in business. I know it gets difficult to remember this when you are getting love bombed, but you should try to keep that in mind. Personal growth doesn't have to come from WWDB. In fact, WWDB doesn't even get a sniff when it comes to renowned motivational companies. Why not try a proven entity like Tony Robbins? Bet your upline wouldn't like that!

Arrogant and rude, you call me that yet you’ll post your own comment on your blog to illicit discussion and page rankings. LOL wow, glad to see your actually out here to have meaningful honest conversation. Guess not, just goes to show you don’t really care and are about the page rankings and trying to spread false information from ages ago. You say I’m not worth listening to, how are you worth listening to since you don’t even build this business anymore. Its been YEARS since you did anything and yet you keep spouting off the same old year after year. It’s getting quite boring and to be honest nobody really cares what you think anymore. Go ahead continue your discussion with the SAME old people that have been posting on your site for years.

I’ll say it again as I’ve always maintained on here, I’m very honest when we take people through the process and up front with all information, costs etc… Don’t try and paint me or our organization with the same brush you had.

RESPONSE: I will post my own comment on my own blog for a couple reasons. Firstly, if you don' seem to accept being challenged and have a history of not posting contradictory things. Secondly, I've had posts you wouldn't publish and you've even turned comments off because you didn't like people calling bullshit on your claims. Your blog, your choice! I'm all about meaningful conversation, but you obviously are not since you have a problem publishing all comments, so you can hop off your high horse on that topic, Lone Ranger.

I didn't say you aren't worth listening to, I just said you aren't really in a position where your financial advice should mean anything. If what you said came out of Kevin OLeary's mouth, that means something. You just aren't in a position to demonstrate the proof in the pudding!

I don't believe my information to be false. I have stated many times that I feel Amway's products are:

1. Inefficiently distributed & expensive
2. Shipping costs are ridiculous ( I noticed a slight increase this month as well, again, nothing YOU control)
3. The motivation has long been determined to be a significant (if not the majority) of the income which funds the diamond & above lifestyle.
4. Success rates are dismal.

I'm not necessarily painting the WWDB group with a brush, I have just yet to see anything different about it. What you describe is no different than any other organization I've been a part of or read about.

I have no doubt you are honest when you approach people about this business in the hopes of getting them either sponsored or buying Amway products. The problem is I don't believe you know much about what you are defending. Just like every other IBO out there, and that's because you aren't supposed to be listening to anyone else because they are negative dream stealers. For the record, I don't want your dream. What the hell would I do with it if I got it? It's useless to me. I got a few of my own, and I don't need a CD every day or a conference 4 times a year to make sure I still have it.

You're in a controversial business. People will Google it. It's my belief that is why Amway focusses on overseas growth.

Saturday, September 17, 2011

Amway IBO's....Way Smarter than the rest of us!

I made another post over at Sahun the WWDB IBO. He talks about status and paycheck to paycheck and how his association makes him awesomer than the rest of us. Anyway, I know he won't be posting my response, so her is my reply to this post.


Let's talk about what you are saying in this article and use it with Amway in mind instead of society.

Keeping up with the Joneses is quite common in society. In Amway, buying the "tools" and attending seminars could be considered keeping up with the Joneses. If you decide you don't need those CD's, or to travel cross country to go to the next seminar, how well received would that be? Quite frankly, you could expect to be ostracized or gently chided for not following the system. Your WWDB system, by the way is by no means effective nor proven.

There are countless people who maxed out credit cards not for consumer debt, but with the encouragement of their upline. Quite frankly, there are numerous uplines who cause more harm than good. I know, I know, not YOUR upline. You have simply traded societal status for Amway status. Your choice, and I personally choose neither.

It's common knowledge that the "becoming a better person" mantra is there to cloak the fact that nobody is making the kind of money that they are expecting to make. You have numerous posts in the past year declaring your freedom in a couple months. How's that going for you? Your year could turn into 2 then 5, without ever getting any closer to your goal.

I think your financial advice is not without merit, but it's a bit rich coming from people that over promise and under deliver. What is the success rate of WWDB? I hope it's appreciably higher than Amway itself, who declare less than half of 1% ever go platinum. Yeah, those are great odds for the Plan B you are talking about. Are you truly serious? Do you expect people to think you are on to something with those dismal rates?

As far as how other people are doing, you do assume much. It comes across as arrogant and rude, which is no doubt in order to attempt to put people on the defensive rather than having a grown up factual debate on the merits of MLM and Amway in General. A debate which if based on fact and not emotion is quite easily winnable in NOT doing Amway.

You living in Alberta are actually in a populace with numerous millionaires from the oil and gas industry. I have an immediate family member who is a millionaire from the energy sector and didn't graduate from high school. Funny thing! The millionaires I know (and I know about a dozen) do not act in any way like Amway millionaires. I think it's because they don't have to prove anything to anybody but themselves. I would wager $1000 right now there are more millionaires in the energy industry alone than in Amway. Common sense would say the logical course of action is not Amway, but it's your ship! Sail it however you like!

Final thought, debt free without a house is not debt free my friend. Glad you have more disposable income to give to your upline though!

Once you BECOME financially independent you might be worth listening to. Until then.......well, whatever. 'Till then, you are just spouting off whatever is said at a seminar or on a CD. Those things are said, by the way to remind you that there is no other way than Amway. Which is bullshit. In fact, one of the worst ways in my opinion is Amway. Cutting grass and doing snow removal would be far more profitable than the VAST majority of Amway participants. It also would make one a lot less sanctimonious.

I'm glad you think that you are a better person because you have an Amway business. I doubt you started it for that, but good on ya!

I know you won't post this, so I'll just pop it over on my blog. My responses to your diatribe really illicit discussion and page rankings!

Happy weekend!

Friday, September 02, 2011

Hello Again.......

Hello and welcome back! I've been pretty busy lately except for the past couple of weeks when I've been enjoying some much needed time off and took the opportunity to do a few things around the house, hang with some good friends, and got one of my eyes lasered again, since it had regressed from my surgery waaaay back when! Just so the IBO's know, I paid cash for my surgery, even though having any sort of financial acumen is impossible if you aren't listening to Amway motivational CD's.

I have a number of topics to write about, however, my first post back is a rather critical comment I posted at the blog of a current WWDB IBO who basically generalized that anyone who doesn't think Amway absolutely rules is uninformed. This also comes from someone who criticizes having a mortgage. Here's the interesting thing about having a mortgage. We bought our house 5 years ago, and had it appraised this week. Guess what? My home value has more than doubled in that time. I was likely more surprised than anyone, but there I was standing there beside myself!

I will ask you, dear and faithful Reader what you can do to get a better than 100% return on investment in the Amway world that doesn't involve the unproven motivational system? I'll let you guess at the answer. To be fair, we have done a lot of renovations and improvements to our house, but always in cash. WOW! I know not to go into debt if I don't have to and I don't even listen to motivational CD's and read the recommended books! Nor do I travel and pay money to listen to the soothsayers speak. How can that be?

To top it all off, I'm also pretty good looking with a hot wife and a great bunch of kids. Try to contain your jealousy.

I posted this comment over at Expeditions of Truth when he wrote a post about Amway & the Detroit Red Wings and since I doubted at the time it would be published, I've copy & pasted it here. Anyone is free to comment, unlike other websites.

Jesus Guthrie, you come across as a pretty pompous ass on this one

1. People not liking Amway doesn't make them ignorant. You are the first to bristle if someone challenges your opinion on liking it. Hypocrite much?

2. Just being around since 1959 doesn't mean it's good. The present Cuban government has been around since the revolution in 1959. Does that make it the best government in the world?

3. Please show just one little link from the BBB(***EDIT - I meant to write FTC....I think my point is still valid****)which states that Amway is the preferred model to follow when it comes to MLM. You can't because the BBB has never stated that. They have stated that as longas there is product selling it isn't a pyramid, which is why Amway had the 10 customer rule which in my experience was NEVER followed, and I suspect today it is seldom followed due to poor value in the products. (ie. they cost a shitload of money for no apparent reason. Don't forget the shipping too!

4. It's not old school to call Amway names and consider it a pyramid. I do both and I've been around it a lot longer than you have. I consider being gung ho about Amway brainwashed, but I don't go around like Foghorn Leghorn about it like you are in this post.

5. So the only negative is from people who are uneducated? Rather sweeping statement, yes? If it's OK, then I will just call everyone in Amway a brainwashed fool since sweeping statements are OK by your example. And Amway's image still is in the toilet. Any significant growth is NOT in North America.

6. So if you are in Amway you automatically have integrity? You really believe that? How would one know someone with integrity for certain? Are we to assume that all WWDB folks have integrity? 'Cause I know that ain't true, Chief. You should know better too, you just have lost all critical thinking skills and have over invested in this rinky dink business thinking it's your only chance at success. Bad move.

7. By your logic, I should ask someone with a financial stake in a company if it's a good company. So if my banker says I should invest in certain investments because they are good (and he makes commission by selling it to me) does that make it a good idea? It does not. The same logic can be applied to Amway man. You need to think about it. You really do.

8. What types of "benefits" can we expect to see because the Detroit Red Wings are "using" the Nutrilite vitamins? Faster? Stronger? These are elite athletes man. Don't you think if the vitamins were all they were hyped to be they would be using them already? Ironically, those millionaire hockey players will likely get a better deal on those shitty vitamins than you!

I'll let you in on a little secret and give you some excellent advice. Go off system for 3 months and see if you still feel the same way. See if your upline still loves you and tells you you are the best and on fire!

I doubt you'll post this, and that's OK I'll just post it on my blog. This one really struck a nerve with me, and I'm sure your friends have noticed a solid difference in you, not necessarily for the better either. You are progressing as most IBO's do.

You didn't post my last comment when I told you that I didn't need to be on some motivational system to spend less than you earn. Nice! Your blog, so you can do what you like! In my experience, not being open to disagreement and controlling information is a hallmark MLM trait! Check out the Amthrax blog and you'll see a case study in a person that I'm sure WWDB had speaking on their stages!

Enjoy the long weekend!