It's Unfortunate

Well it looks like our friend Shaun over at Expedition of Truths has decided not to allow our discussions on his Sold Out post regarding "Dream Night"(!)

My thoughts? Not surprising. This just tells me more clearly than I suspected before that a lot of the attitudes & teachings that I experienced are still prevalent today in some AMO's.

If WWDB is truly a solid and virtuous organization, why the secrecy? Why is the cost of going to these functions such a secret? Why is the cost of being "in" WWDB so secretive? I think I know why, but I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. I just think it's strange that you wouldn't be allowed to view the costs associated with being in WWDB before deciding to do so. Not surprising, but it is disappointing.

I see Amway changing. It's slow, but it is moving in the right direction I think. However, any managerial outlook when dealing with improper behaviour is simple.

What did you know?

When did you know?

What did you do about it?

Not allowing deception is something Amway appears to have taken ownership of. They need to keep it up. I have seen things that I think are pretty sketchy which suggest Amway is the reason certain things are being done (spending lots of money on items), but no evidence supports that suggestion. It's this indirect suggestive behaviour that needs to be closely monitored and stopped when it crosses the line.

Some of Shaun's posts have concerned me with what messages he's receiving about running his Amway business and what he can expect in the future. To me, he would have to overcome practically insurmountable odds to achieve what he plans on achieving. I admire his courage to declare his dreams and hope he achieves what he wants. I just personally feel that he is pinning a lot of hope into something which seems to fall short for many, yours truly included.

At the end of the day, few people achieve notable success in Amway. Fewer yet create the walk away income that is presented in the plan. Attempts by Amway to reel in the poorly managed and controversial Motivational Organizations have been met with extreme resistance by certain leaders. Some of these people chose to walk away from Amway at high levels such as diamond, EDC, and Emerald IN SPITE of having achieved these levels.

You cannot deny that Amway IBO's and AMO leaders have by and large fallen short of being realistic as to what is actually achievable in Amway.

Bottom line: You need to be moving enormous amounts of products to an astronomical number of people to make "walk away" income in Amway. Heck, I'd argue that you need that just to make a decent annual income! Former Diamonds have said this as well. From Alberta no less!

So my question to any IBO. How's that going for you? Are you a product based business like Deb? Or are you a dream based business that mentions product movement as an aside?

Below is my comment to Shaun that he didn't see fit to post here. I find it interesting that he accuses me of having a position based on (in his opinion) incomplete facts, yet doesn't feel compelled to practice what he preaches and provide all the details himself. I do wish him well and hope that he will eventually have the confidence in himself and his business to allow dissenting opinions on his blog again.

By the way, Shaun, I'm certainly not AFRAID of Amway or WWDB. That's just a catch all phrase IBO's tend to use to save face. You thinking I'm afraid of Amway is speculation, and an absurd speculation at that. Why would it scare me? Think about it. Why would it SCARE anyone?

I criticize it because to me it's a bunch of B.S. which you happen to have staked your future on.

I also understand it....far more than you do.

You and others like you refuse to say anything in open forums because there's nothing you can say which would make sense nor further your argument to anyone even vaguely familiar with Amway or WWDB. Or any other AMO (Amway Motivational Organization) for that matter.

Your little information control operation you go going on here? That's been going on since motivation started being higher profit than Amway product sales, IMO. information control was goin on in the mid 90's, and almost every single IBO doesn't want to have open discussions on the topic, including Amway's staunchest defender, IBOFB aka David Steadson.

I wish you well. But I know how this story will probably end.

As a final note to you.....WATCH YOUR EXPENSES. I know you're spending more than you make. You're a 1000 PV'er, unless you are currently in Platinum qualification, you are most likely losing money on this.

I'm sorry you see to have gotten to the point where you feel no discussion is necessary because nothing is going to change your mind. That's a dangerous place to be financially for you, but in my opinion, it's the frame of mind your upline prefers you in.

I wish you well, but not at the expense of others.

No hard feelings.

It Really Is Sold Out!

Over at Expedition Of Truths, Shaun has disclosed that "Dream Night" is really sold out. He provides a screen shot showing that it is actually sold out.

He also made it clear that because I had a few questions about "Dream Night" that he ...."engaged negative people going nowhere and wasting energy on something that doesn’t really concern them."

Really? Having questions about something and searching for answers is negative and indicative that I'm going nowhere? Wow! That's........interesting. The argument could be made that I am somewhere, and I'm working towards going somewhere else that I want to be. Just because it doesn't involve Amway or WWDB it doesn't make it any less noble. Some people may think I have a better chance of success BECAUSE it doesn't involve Amway or WWDB.

I find this to be a typical attitude commonly displayed by those involved in AMO's. People who aren't involved

- just don't get it, or

- don't have a dream, or

- can't see the big picture, or

- are too dumb to get it, or

- are negative, or

- are failures at life, or

I think wondering if motivational systems are still overcharging people does concern me because many people have been affected by that behaviour. Obviously when one is hesitant to tell people the price of tickets to "Dream Night" as well as monthly system costs there is something to my suspicion.

If your business depends upon keeping secrets until people are already in, you've got problems. If you are uncomfortable talking about the motivation costs, you may have a bigger problem.

**edit***I must point out that I appreciate Shaun making it clear that there's no way I could have actually known that this was sold out because I'm not a WWDB member. Weird how you can't see the WWDB costs until you are either a member or else a WWDB'er tells you. I would think the system would be upfront about the costs involved to anybody. Meh....

If you are recruiting people without telling them what the system costs or that it's necessary if you want to build it big, a lot of people would consider that dishonest. I'm not saying that's what Shaun is necessarily doing, but I believe it's been done by many IBO's.

Your problems may get even bigger if you try to claim these business functions called "Dream Night" to Revenue Canada as a business expense when you have no increase in product sales (not self consumption) as a result of attending these business meetings.

I left the following comment on his blog yesterday. I guess he isn't interested in his readers getting both sides of the story:

I will be adding another update so its clarified. It may serve you well to link to my post which inspired this response? Otherwise, it's just half the story. You want everyone to have the FULL details, based on what you've written, no? It would seem rather hypocritical for you yourself to not fully disclose where this all comes form, IMHO.

Your call, obviously.

**End of comment***

So that's what's going on with Dream night. It is sold out for the one night (for 850 not 1200-1300 as originally stated). A few questions remain that really shouldn't be that big of a deal but are for some reason:

1. What does it cost to attend and what do you get for the cost of a ticket?

2. Are people in Alberta going to all 3 Dream Nights? If so, why?

3. Is there an increase in product sales after attending these functions?

I do wish Shaun well. No hard feelings.

Sold Out!

***UPDATE***

Dino Baskovic from Amway is on the case. I'm curious top see what the Corporation's stance is on this

I was reading over at Expeditions of Truth on a post created on November 6th in which the following claim is made about Dream Night.

"Well Dream Night Tickets went on sale Thursday and within 60 minutes the event which holds I believe 1200 to 1300 people was sold out."

That sounded really suspicious to me (I'm quite certain nobody gets turned away at these events) so I went over to the World Wide Dream Builders website. I also wanted to see if I could determine the ticket prices, but you have to be an IBO to do so. I didn't find the ticket prices, but I did come across a pretty compelling view on the functions being held January 5th, 7th, and 8th. It would appear that you can still buy tickets for these events, all of them. Check out the shot I took on Nov. 9th at the top!

So who is going around saying that these events are sold out? Upline? WWDB themselves? Are they really sold out? I have no answers to any of these questions. If I knew who to ask, I would. Alas, I am not allowed to have my comments published over at Expedition of Truths anymore.

All I know is that Dream Night appears to be happening in Edmonton on Wednesday Jan 5th, then Friday, Jan 7th. Then Saturday Jan. 8th it's being held again in Calgary.

I also have a sneaking suspicion (I could be wrong) that all three events will be attended by primarily the same people since Calgary is only a few short hours from Edmonton.

I wonder if you can get a discount on the ticket prices when you attend all 3 events?

Looks like the trip will be well worth it for whomever is speaking! I wonder if the keynote speakers are the same for all 3?

I hope they are going to change things up a bit for each show. Could get fairly repetitive otherwise.

David Steadson.....Wrong Again

I have been having exchanges with Amway's Caped Crusader, IBOFB. I know he tries to put spin control on everything Amway, but this last go round sent it right over the top.

At Corporate Frauds Watch in a comment thread on a post about signing up other IBO's as opposed to actually retailing, he first of all says that being an IBO doesn't make you a business owner......Yeah. I'll let you think about that for a while.

He says this presumably to set up his next unintelligent statement, to wit:

"If we ignore the fact that, virtually by definition, if you are selling to another Amway business then it's likely a wholesale sale, if your selling to an Amway IBO who is not operating a business, then "retailing" to them is clearly covered by "selling products"

Uh-Huh. So he's saying that someone who isn't actively building a business but buys products can be considered a retail sale to his upline. In spite of the fact that they are IBO's.

This sounded like B.S. to me, so I emailed Karen O'Neil and asked her what she thought of that. Here's her answer:

"Rocket,

I believe your question refers to Rule 4.22, the Customer Volume Rule. The answer is no. Only sales to non-IBOs can qualify as retail sales under Rule 4.22.

Karen O'Neill
Rules Administration"

So this tells you how intelligent David Steadson is even when he tries to sound smart. Where is this going to end? I mean sincerely, Amway has more problems BECAUSE of what this guy is doing. Not to mention the fact that Amway themselves seem to have had enough of IBOFB's antics and have created a website for people to have real answers for questions about Amway.

This is a step in the right direction. A website run by the corporation for genuine questions about the Amway business will do far more than David Steadson and his ilk responding to Google Alerts all over the web and just pissing people off with their diatribe. If Amway is truly wanting to move forward after the Pokorny Suit, then they need to stop having childish antics, such a IBOFB's promoting of Amway.

Amway paid a lot of money in the lawsuit, and to me, it seems to clearly say that they accept responsibility for their lack of direction on how to deal with what are (in my opinion) the issues of Amway:

1. Lack of retailability with Amway products due to unreasonably high prices

2. Lack of control over the Tools Business

I like to think Amway is going to get real here soon. I really do.

Their first step should be to reel in people damaging their brand even more. Not me, and not other critics. We talk about our experiences, and I think they're all legitimate.

What I find most entertaining about this is the fact that IBOFB initially thought the lawsuit was poorly done and didn't have a chance of surviving.

Looks like Amway disagreed. That's all that really matters, isn't it?

Go build your Amway business David. Your little social engineering project has failed. Anyone can see that.

Amway has had to change. It's slow, but I believe this is going to make it happen. It's not because of Steadson's efforts.

It's in spite of them.

Let me ask you this......

If someone called you up asking if you would listen to a business plan on how to become their customer, would you be interested?

You'd get to pay generally more for stuff you are already buying!

According to some, if you sign up as an IBO, then just buy stuff for yourself, that's considered a retail sale for your upline!

Makes sense! All right, now get out there and get free!