Sunday, October 28, 2007

Training and Education

I have not been around much for the past month or so. Life is happening. Hopefully life is going well enough for you that you also have better things to do than watch the blogs.

I have been reading over at the blog by Jimmy Payne, particularly the post about training and education. It brought up a train of thought that I wanted to share, consisting of 3 questions:

Why the focus on training and education?

Why is there so much training involved to be able to retail products?

Why does there seem to be the need to justify why these products cost more?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about training and educating yourself. I could understand it more if the training was geared towards bookkeeping, tax information and the like.

Most of the training seems to be geared towards justifying the product prices. Bad move. The free market will decide what is and what is not an acceptable price. Learning to spin and justify prices is not the key to financial freedom. It just isn't.

That's just my opinion though. Do you think that type of training is worth it?

In this post, the only one who even brings up products is Jeffrey. Jeffrey wants Quixtar to break up case lots, so that he doesn't have to outlay a bunch of money. Not a bad request, although he gets no acknowledgement.

I guess my point is, Quixtar still sucks. So does Amway. The method of distribution sucks, the prices suck, the entire concept to me, sucks.

Glad they're finally getting their shit together, but in my opinion, too little, and waaaay too late.

I'll put it this way. TEAM doesn't even have a product, and if I was forced to do one or the other, I'd do TEAM.

TEAM sucks too, by the way.


Anonymous Joecool said...

"Buy products, sell products, get others to register as IBOs."

That's as simple as the business is. Why is there a need for an endless amount of training and educations? If I may add, this training material is often the downfall of many IBOs as the expenses associated with the training materials eventually snowballs and becomes a huge pile of debt over the course of a year or more.

IMO, this is because many prospective IBOs are in "need" and therefore more open to seeing a shortcut to retirement or to fabulous wealth. They get indoctrinated and fiercely defend the business despite the fact that they are taking losses each month due to the training expenses.

Uplines often cleverly teach IBOs that they are "investing" in themselves, or they are simply not working hard enough to achieev what they want.

29 October, 2007 13:33  
Blogger Loser said...

good point, I'd do TEAM too. Why bother ordering products and all that cost if I can just listen to tapes and attend meetings? My Price is 1/3rd right there.

Other wise, just products only, ordering products and trying to retail them. Impossible, with current prices.

Again, I would do team if gun is pointed to my head and I'm asked to chose at least one. Team are crazy, but not as crazy as trying to sell XS.

30 October, 2007 12:30  
Anonymous Joecool said...

If you areon standing order for one year, and purchase one extra tape/cd each week, you will have well over 100 tapes/cds after a year.

I think IBOs should return all the ones that don't teach anything about how to make a profit in quixtar.

30 October, 2007 12:44  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Doesn't this discussion get rather OLD? I mean REALLY! It's OLD already!

How many times can you put a clever twist on the phrase "quixtar sucks"? You need to find something better to do with your TIME. You obviously have TOO MUCH time on your hands.

The business isn't going away because some little teenage chump puts "quixtar sucks" on a blog post. Can we get any LESS mature? (I am afraid you'd probably have just the answer for that.)

Here's my opinion put into terms only you would understand- YOU SUCK! Get it, got it? GOOD!

30 October, 2007 18:49  
Blogger rocket said...

Oh yes anonymous, the Amway/Quixtar opportunity sucks.

You suck also, before I forget. And I suck, and Joecool sucks, and loser sucks. We're all just one sucky family.

The point is, meathead, Why is there so much training involved to be able to retail products?

as well as...

Why does there seem to be the need to justify why these products cost more?

The fact that you can't answer those very simple and valid questions makes you the suckiest of them all. Because you are sticking to it, despite that it sucks.

Suck on that, your royal suckness.

30 October, 2007 21:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Sir Sucksalot,

You just don't GET IT do you? You suck that much you're broke and can't afford the products even if you wanted them, knobhead. Keep buying the walmart crap if you actually want the synthetic crap running in your body. Keep taking it. Go ahead. We'll pray for you at your funeral when you die because you stuffed so much synthic crap down your yaphole.

You don't know the difference between synthetic crap or organic?

Oh ok, there's the need for the training then.

IBO's are not going to be vitamin experts out the gate when they sign the application. Are you a vitamin expert? I don't think you're an "expert" at anything.

Alo the training is there to help protect the IBO from saying the wrong thing and making false health claims like people in Monavie do.

It's great for both the company and the IBO's.

Why do you keep whining about something that's so insignificant? Really.

31 October, 2007 10:29  
Anonymous Joecool said...

You know what's really funny?

IBOs often claim their success is built upon duplication, but it's obvious that it's not.

An IBO "quixbot" is suppopsed to do 100 PV and plug into the system. Do that and you are "edifiable". Duplicate that and you get rich right?

Wrong. A 100 PV IBO who is on the system is losing money. Duplicating more losers does not equate to success.

But hey, brainwashing works because so many IBOs lose money month after month, yet defend quixtar and the teaching system like their lives depended on it.

It's like I kick you in the ass and you say "Thank you sir, may I have another"?


31 October, 2007 12:44  
Blogger rocket said...

Hey again anon!

Didn't take long for you to fall into broke loser mode.

I know the difference between organic and synthetic.

Obviously you don't know the difference between a rip off and good value.

Funny how you think I'm broke.

You are the one saying I have too much time on my hands, yet you are the one responding.

I am not the one losing money at this. You are. Know how I know that?

Because if you were making money at it, you'd be saying to yourself "Gee, I'm sure glad my group is too stupid to see the obvious which Rocket is pointing out".

As it is, you see me as a threat to your business because you want me to find something better to do.

You SAY that your products are better. PROVE it.

That would involve a little more than directing me to the Nutrilite site.

That's like me saying I have a superior blog to anyone else on the internet, and then directing you to my site.

Happy Halloween, and until you can provide substance to your claims, please feel free to continue sucking at your business.

31 October, 2007 14:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


You think Quixtar/Amway sucks. that's THE obvious. Everything else you said does NOT make sense.

Ok I will not HAVE to direct you to the nutrilite website- I can just point you to internet retailer or consumer reports. I like this article expecially:


"Direct sales brand Nutrilite gained a 96 per cent satisfaction rating, coming out on top, while the specialist store GNC came bottom with a rating of 58 per cent."

Says Consumer Labs.

I would trust them before I ever trusted a KNOB like you.

"As it is, you see me as a threat to your business because you want me to find something better to do."

No, that's not it at all! I think you're a fool who doesn't know what the F*ck he's talking about and he shouldn't be blogging. I thought I would save you from embarassing yourself any further. Then again you do provide cheap entertainment. Like anyone would ever take you seriously.

31 October, 2007 17:00  
Anonymous Joecool said...

So is the anonymous guy actually going to make a case as to why he "thinks" quixtar works?

Certainly the case won't be made because he's actually profiting.


01 November, 2007 12:44  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

joecool said;

"So is the anonymous guy actually going to make a case as to why he "thinks" quixtar works?

Certainly the case won't be made because he's actually profiting."

You think THAT'S funny? That didn't make any sense. Can you PLEASE speak in English?

I think "the rocket" is over in the corner still reeling and licking his wounds.

01 November, 2007 13:50  
Blogger rocket said...

Rocket's just fine. Know why?

'Cause rocket knows you aren't making a profit.

Know how I know?

Because it's mathematically assured.

Prove me wrong.

01 November, 2007 17:36  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


You really want me to slam you with relatively easy math? Are you sure you want to go there?

You obviously couldn't get the numbers right in your previous post, how would you expect to get the numbers right this time?

01 November, 2007 17:55  
Blogger rocket said...

OK then.

Read the post "Rocket's Challenge"

You can copy and paste this link.

Am I to presume you are up for it?

Otherwise, shut the front door.

You either will or you will not.

Do it not, and you will be like every other IBO....broke but full of belief.

01 November, 2007 18:05  
Anonymous Joecool said...

anonymous said " You think THAT'S funny? That didn't make any sense. Can you PLEASE speak in English?"

Joe says: Let me say it clearly. You are losing money in your quixtar business. Your downline(s) are also losing money in the quixtar business.

I guess you could say you are a loser. You must be like the "bizarro" world in the cartoons where everything is the opposite. You uplines who profit from your tools money call you "winners", and indeed you are "winners", but only in the bizarro world.

In the real world, you are not.

Man, if only I had a dime for every IBO who claimed to be successful, I would be a multi millionaire. :P

01 November, 2007 18:35  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rocket and Joecool,

Aren't way off topic here?


"Man, if only I had a dime for every IBO who claimed to be successful, I would be a multi millionaire. :P"

Please point out where I said I was successful? I missed that part!

1 question on the "Freedom Date" thing. What exactly is that?

Freedom from a Job or Freedom from what?

Who the f*ck provides me with this "freedom date?"

So let me get this straight, You don't like IBO's calling you broke losers because it hurts your feelings(awwwwww), but hey you can call us whatever the hell you want? Interesting set of rules you live by. I guess you need these rules to help you feel better. A little childish here aren't we?

01 November, 2007 18:57  
Blogger rocket said...

So you won't take the challenge.

Thought so.

Nobody does.

It doesn't work.

01 November, 2007 19:25  
Anonymous Joecool said...

anonymous said "Please point out where I said I was successful? I missed that part!"

Joe says: You didn't have to say it, but I'm glad you did! :)

anonymous said "So let me get this straight, You don't like IBO's calling you broke losers because it hurts your feelings(awwwwww), but hey you can call us whatever the hell you want? Interesting set of rules you live by. I guess you need these rules to help you feel better. A little childish here aren't we?"

Joe says: A diamond once said, if you're not a winner - then you must be a loser. If you're losing should we call you a winner? (Thus my reference to bizarro world)

What the critics don't appreciate, is being called a loser just because we choose to earn our living in a more lucrative fashion than quixtar.
Heck, minimum wage is better than quixtar for most. :P

01 November, 2007 19:46  
Blogger rocket said...

Your twisted logic won't work here anon.

This is not the magical land of Amway Business Owners, this is a place where people who think for themselves share their thoughts.

Hype and rhetoric with no sound business basis won't work.

Just like your business.

Let me know if you are ready to take the challenge.

01 November, 2007 20:03  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


"A diamond once said, if you're not a winner - then you must be a loser."

They are correct.

That's called an antonym:

Antonyms, from the Greek anti ("opposite") and onoma ("name") are word pairs that are opposite in meaning, such as hot and cold, obese and skinny, and up and down. Words may have different antonyms, depending on the meaning.

Such as "winners and losers"

Being a winner is the exact opposite of being a loser. You can't have it both ways. Someone has to lose, we can't all be winners.

You call that "twisted logic"?

Get the dictionary out boys.


You haven't answered my question!

What is a "freedom date" and who gives me one of those?

01 November, 2007 20:29  
Anonymous Joecool said...

anonymous, the reason why you are a loser is because your upline diamnd is a winner. See, the guy who sells the tools is the winner and the rest are losers.

In real businesses, you can have many winners because instead of downline, real businesses have customers. Those customers make a purchase and it makes the businesses thrive.

In quixtar, there are few customers so the downline are the customers. See the difference

01 November, 2007 20:40  
Blogger rocket said...

Your freedom date is the date you will be free from your job.

Not that it matters since you won't take the challenge.

Because you won't have the jam to show me your numbers.

Because your numbers suck

01 November, 2007 21:38  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


"you won't have the jam to show me your numbers."

Are you kidding me? You actually have the sack to ask that question!

I only known of this blog for less than 24hrs and you're already asking for income statements?

You resort to this because someone happens to disagrees with you. Aren't we a bit immature here? Asking for someone's income is a sure sign of insecurity. The "My schtick is bigger than your schtick" syndrome. Ego trip.

Besides, I never made an income claim enough to actually warrant a request for an income statement.

I don't have to prove my numbers if I haven't given you my numbers.

01 November, 2007 22:36  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Also, my "freedom date" has been since 1985. I've never had a job since then. I own several businesses besides being an IBO. I am happily married to a corporate attorney who is also involved in the Amway business. We are happy in the way the business is going and will stick to it despite what you and "joecool" think. I thank you for your time. Good Day.

02 November, 2007 09:41  
Blogger rocket said...

Well Hey!

No need to get defensive!

All I said was if this was a business that works, and if you want to imply that it's working for you, then prove it.

When someone sells a restaurant or a shoe store, they usually are asked to show the numbers so the person that will be buying the business can see the numbers for themselves, then base a decision off that.

You made an inference that you "get it" when it comes to this "business", and Joecool and I do not.

You also made reference that I may die because of synthetic crap running through my body.

As for making false claims like people at Monavie do, I'm not sure what you insinuating me dying because of not using Nutrilite would fall under.

You then sais I don't know what the F*** I'm talking about. I think I do.

Because what I am saying is this business is not a viable income earner, and the products are overpriced. You refute that.

So I asked you to prove otherwise by taking my challenge. This would prove that an income is possible.

You won't. Nobody involved in Amway will.

Because they can't.

I notice you say you're happy with the way it is going. Great! Still doesn't answer the age old debate of whether or not its profitable.

I have been following the Amway and Quixtar business for over 10 years now. I've also not been restricted about what I read, what websites I go to, or concern myself with cross lining.

I'll bet I have a better understanding of it than you.

Thanks for keeping the streak up on Rocket's Challenge.

02 November, 2007 10:17  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I was responding to a blogpost about training and education. I gave you a response. You and joecool turned it into something else because you didn't like my answers. Now you're the one who is very defensive because you ask for my proof that this business works.

All I made claim to is that I am very happy with the business. How am I to proove my happyness?

If you can't stick with the original topic then you shouldn't be blogging.

Either way, personal income is a personal discussion and shouldn't be made with total strangers. I would be very surprised and apalled if an IBO or business person ever revealed their income to a stranger like yourself.

I am not getting defensive here, just surprised by the gall you have to ask such questions. I may have to run this by Quixtar's legal department about your blog to see if this is legal as to what you're doing. Forcing someone to give them an income statement is illegal and is prosecutable. Do you want to persue this? I will have Quixtar's legal department contact you.

02 November, 2007 11:50  
Anonymous Joecool said...

I make $10,000 a month sitting at home blogging. That's better than quixtar.

02 November, 2007 12:14  
Blogger rocket said...

Feel free to have Quixtar's legal dept. call me. What is that?

A gunboat tactic. We disagree on the value of training. I call you out and you (poorly) threaten to take legal action?

Then you say the business works just fine. You give no definition of fine. The reason of a business is to make money. If everything is fine and you are amking money, then what's the prob?

Only you don't say you're making money. And I don't believe you are making money. That leads us to Rocket's challenge. Which you won't take.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any law being broken by Rocket's challenge. It's voluntary.

And because of that, I expect no takers.

It would prove on an individual basis what has been revealed on a number of blogs, and by ex IBO's. Most people do not make money.

As far as training, I feel that a lot of it is a spin to justify higher prices. That's the point of my post. Why not just be more competitive? That's my opinion. I'm welcome to it, just as you are yours.

Maybe learn what is and what is not illegal before you start playing Matlock with me.

02 November, 2007 13:07  
Blogger rocket said...

PS Anon, If Quixtar/Amway has a problem with me, I've left a number of comments on their sites. You can check here as well:

or here:

I have mentioned to Amway on a few occasions how I feel their prices suck. Feel free to surf their blogs. It's there.

I look forward to your response.

02 November, 2007 13:59  
Anonymous Joecool said...

Anonymous is right, personal income is personal. Rocket isn't asking about your personal income.

The topic of debate is your quixtar business income. Apparently you defend quixtar because you believe it to work right?

So what evidence do you have to show that it works?

02 November, 2007 15:54  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


When you understand the financial realities of an MLM company you will also understand what type of profit margins they MUST have, and why they can never compete in price with a product sold through the traditional marketing channels such as Walmart.

Because of the compensation plan and the higher quality of the product is why the higher prices are justified.

Yes you CAN be higher priced and be highly competitive at the same time. Read the article on Bioquest SA8 in the Consumer reports. It's more concentrated yet is higher priced, but still can remain competitive because it's concentrated.

Also, it takes just as much time to sell a $20 bottle of vitamins as it does to sell a $50 bottle.

Your comment:

"The free market will decide what is and what is not an acceptable price." -Oh you're so living in a dream world, But that's a whole different topic.

If you want to have an intelligent conversation then I'm open. If you want to resort to how much I make-and yes Quixtar income is ALSO personal. I will not answer you.

That just means you lost the will to have an open and intelligent debate.

02 November, 2007 22:25  
Anonymous rara said...

Anonymous said: "Because of the compensation plan and the higher quality of the product is why the higher prices are justified."

You hit the nail on the head about the compensation plan. That's what "critics" have been saying all along. You have a whole bunch of middlemen (called upline) to pay who really add no value to the product.

Quixtar is going in the direction of emphasizing retail sales, for which I applaud them. But do you think your customers care about the compensation plan? They just want good quality at good prices and if the compensation plan adds extra cost without providing added value, many customers will go somewhere else

03 November, 2007 10:23  
Blogger rocket said...

Rara, stop talking sense.

It's not fair to people in Amway.

03 November, 2007 14:41  
Blogger rocket said...

By the way anon

I DO understand the financial realities of MLM. That's why I think it's a loser when it comes to making money.

Interesting how you think that I don't get it, that also is a typical IBO response. I think I do get it.

It may take the same amount of time to sell a $50 bottle of vitamins compared to a $20 bottle of vitamins. People will buy a better value, not what is hyped.

They also are not, as Rara pointed out, willing to pay for the various layers of profit that need to be achieved so you can become a millionaire.

If you don't believe the free market decides what is and what is not acceptable, then it truly is you living in a dream world.

Mind you, that's exactly what your upline wants.

03 November, 2007 15:33  
Anonymous Joecool said...


Can you name 5 former IBOs who still consistently order their household products from Amway/Quixtar?

No, I thought not.

IBOs are willing to pay the high prices when they think they will become Amway/Quixtar millionaires. Once that dream disappears, so does their loyalty to Amway/Quixtar products.

05 November, 2007 11:38  
Blogger rocket said...

Another one gone.


13 November, 2007 17:42  

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